64Digits

The difference between helping and insulting

Posted by death on Aug. 27, 2013, 2:37 p.m.

This is a problem I come across mostly on the internet, when you post something to get helpful feedback that you can use to improve your work with. There is a huge difference between online and in person feedback as well.

In person i find people to be too shy to be honest with their opinion, this happens when i'm at school during peer review sessions. I almost always get a very vague positive review of anything i maybe doing. (art, writing, programming, etc) I'm guessing they are afraid of any possible retaliation they might receive for giving a negative review but these reviews need to be honest and detailed for them to be useful in anyway. This ruins those sessions and it's one of the reasons i hate working in groups at school.

If people are too shy to say what they think in person than perhaps they will be more honest online. Well the problem with that is they maybe a little too blunt, and they enjoy that a lot. When it comes to getting feedback online, you won't have the problem of people being shy or dishonest, however you get a bunch of people who get pleasure from being overly negative and blunt. You can see in many responses that these people really want you to feel bad for the work you did and instead of helping you, they want to hurt you.

This is a difference of intention, there are people who comment just to insult your work and they are very different from those who want to help. Some people might do this without thinking or without realizing that their comment is insulting. I myself have probably done this a few times, although i try my best to avoid doing so.

The important thing to remember is that helpful feedback is positive in tone and respectful to the creator. There should be no need for using adjectives that insult elements of the work. If a particular element is weak or flawed, you can state that it needs work and why. You can give feedback that negatively reviews the work without the review being in a negative or insulting tone.

Now let's look at some examples of what i mean. Here is what a rude and disrespectful comment looks like:

Quote:

This game sucks. The jumping is broken, the music sounds like someone with arthritis is playing an untuned piano and the graphics mine as well have been drawn with crayons, thrown into a paper shredder and than taped back together.

Okay so from this short comment we can learn a few things, that the user was unhappy with the game in general "the game sucks", that they thought the controls/physics were weak "jumping is broken", and that the music and graphics could be better. However we have learned nothing but the emotional impact the work had on the user and not anything specific about what exactly made them feel this way. it lacks details and suggestions. it's only purpose is to insult the game and it's creator. it is borderline trolling since the intention was never to leave any useful feedback.

Now let's attempt writing up the same comment but in a positive and helpful way:

Quote:

My experience with this game was a bit disappointing for several reasons: the jumping mechanics were flawed, the player has a delay when they land and it causes numerous deaths when trying to run and jump on several platforms continuously. Secondly the music is dull and emotionless, the structure needs improvement, i would suggest simplifying the structure and go with a classic verse verse chorus format for now. Last i have to mention that the graphics lack style, there seems to be very little texture to the sprites, possibly due to the lack of shading. Adding a few more shades to each sprite could dramatically increase the depth of the graphics. I would also suggest a better choice in colors to contrast the background from the foreground elements. Overall it's a solid game without any major flaws but every element of the game has a noticeable weak point that when added together, really does hurt the experience in the end.

This comment has the same overall opinion of the work but instead of using insults to express their opinion, they used real details from their experience with the work. When the developer reads this comment they can actually learn something about their game and get a few suggestions for how to improve their work. You know, the whole reason commenting and feedback exist.

When you read insulting comments they tend to seem more barbaric and unintelligent than comments that contain detail and remain helpful. I also think it's important to think carefully about everything you write and post online. Just because people are anonymous and you may never meet any of the people you communicate with online does not mean we should be so rude and thoughtless when engaging in discussions online. nobody likes it when they receive insulting comments so i'm not sure why it is occurs so often, usually coming from people who have never created anything in their life.

Whether or not you are a developer or a consumer shouldn't matter, be respectful and helpful to people, it will create a better environment for developers and consumers alike and this may increase the improvement potential for early developers.

If anyone has any experience they want to share or any other tips for leaving better feedback than leave a comment.

Comments

panzercretin 11 years, 2 months ago

Damn straight.

One thing that gets on my nerves is when you give an honest constructive criticism and the person responsible for what you're reviewing takes it as an insult, no matter how diplomatic you are with your critique.

KyleKubik 11 years, 2 months ago

Great post!

When I review a game, or any other creation, I find myself trying to stick to one central rule:

"Don't TRY to hurt anyone's feelings, but don't be afraid to either."

If someone is posting a game looking for a review, that means that they want other's opinions. And if someone honestly wants my opinion, I'm going to give it to them honestly. If I didn't like your game at all, I think its important that I tell you that. What you decide to do about it (if anything) is up to you.

MMOnologueguy 11 years, 2 months ago

I'm kind of disappointed that as posters become more articulate and intelligent they also become less insulting. These people would make the best insults. I kind of take a stereotypically catholic position on insults, by which I mean if I'm insulted or offended then I probably deserved it for some reason or another. Being helpful and being insulting aren't mutually exclusive.

Cesque 11 years, 2 months ago

In line with what MMORPGGuy said… I actually think you made the "fixed" comment unnecessarily polite. Seriously, you don't need to have the comment sound like an essay to be constructive, and sometimes being straightforward is a good thing. Your actual comments on other people's games are a very good example of how to write stern-but-fair critique, death.

Here's how I'd put it:

Quote:

I found this game disappointing. The jumping mechanics feel broken (the player has a delay when they land and it causes random deaths when trying to run and jump on several platforms continuously). The music is dull and emotionless, its structure could use improvement (I suggest simplifying the structure and going with a classic verse verse chorus format for now). The graphics lack style, there seems to be very little texture to the sprites due to the lack of shading. Adding a few more shades to each sprite could fix that. I also suggest a better choice in colors to contrast the background from the foreground elements. Overall it's a promising game, but every major aspect of it has a noticeable weak point that when added together, ruins the experience in the end.

Less formal than your version, less dickish than the original, and still constructive (though you may want to use less brackets and hyphens, that's simply due to my bracketosis hyphenatis).

Not to say polite and formal comments are wrong, but if you push it too much in this direction you may end up sounding like a smug patronising dick.

Castypher 11 years, 2 months ago

I'd tag people like death as harsh reviewers, not necessarily insulting. I actually think that sometimes a harsh review is needed in order to push the idea that something needs to change. However, more friendly reviews are a nice break and shouldn't be ignored either, because people respond better to it.

You should always make it a point to indicate what was good about the game, if it exists. Otherwise people think you're just looking for the bad in everything, and quite frankly a lot of people need at least some form of assurance amidst all your gunfire in order to make them realize that you're just being constructive.

For example, if their gameplay was awful but they had some pretty likable characters and decent storytelling, make an effort to point it out. The reason I like reading Cesque's reviews is because he's blunt in a humorous way, and despite being able to find more issues than anyone else, he still manages to find things to compliment.

death 11 years, 2 months ago

Quote: Kilin

You should always make it a point to indicate what was good about the game, if it exists. Otherwise people think you're just looking for the bad in everything

i agree with this. it's very important, maybe just as important as the bad elements of a game. if you mention the good and the bad versus just the bad, than you will give a complete overview of the game instead of just a certain segment of the experience. Further more it's important to know what is good and should stay, what is okay and can be improved, and what is bad and should be fixed or removed.

Quote: MMORPGguy

Being helpful and being insulting aren't mutually exclusive.

true, however when your comment is insulting, it losses creditability. people aren't going to listen to some one who is barbarically shouting insults in a forum or something. they come off as of less intelligent and therefore their opinion's influence will decrease.

Quote: Cesque

I actually think you made the "fixed" comment unnecessarily polite. Seriously, you don't need to have the comment sound like an essay to be constructive, and sometimes being straightforward is a good thing.

if you want your opinion to be taken seriously, you must present it as formally as possible. good feedback needs to be lengthy and complete, anything you can say in less than 100 words probably isn't worth saying at all. (unless it's a more specific discussion)

All good points being made here. i knew 64D was the right place for this discussion.

Acid 11 years, 2 months ago

I always try to point out the good, but sometimes you have to be a little more blunt with others.

Billy has a TDS with stolen graphics built on a demo TDS engine that he pulled from the GMC. He added enemies that he drew in Paint with neon colors. They are the same enemy with a different sprite.

If you told Billy:

Hey Billy, I think your game has potential, but the enemy AI needs a lot of work. They all pretty much act exactly the same with the sprites being the only variation.

He might respond:

Im adding a new enemy. His name is "blueboss" and he lieks to fite with more speed.

Basically: Sometimes a game doesn't have potential and you shouldn't lie.

Cesque 11 years, 2 months ago

Quote:

if you want your opinion to be taken seriously, you must present it as formally as possible.

Not really, too much formality can put people off, too. Just steer clear of being rude.

I'm sorry:

In my opinion, that this does not necessarily need to be the case, as excessively applying the formal register in writing may also be considered undesirable by some. Rather, priority should be given simply to avoidance of unnecessary verbal aggression in your critique.

Better? :)

Also, have a look at your own feedback:

Quote: Your own review of Hospital 3d III game thingy

Okay i played it briefly and unfortunately i have to say… i didn't like it very much.

I'll start off with the most obvious thing from the first 2 seconds of the game. The view angle is hideously small. so small it's irritating and very strange. i just can't get used to it.

Second, the collisions need a lot of work, it's even more noticeable when running, you basically just get stuck in everything.

Third, dat jump scare. it wasn't very good. the first one is just a screaming sound, which doesn't seem to match up with the visuals. after all, no one is screaming around me so where is the sound coming from? Not scary, just poorly designed.

And last, the final piece of the game i managed to play. The first enemy. i tried this 3 times after meeting it and dying but i seriously didn't know what to do or where to go. i tried running around the whole level and couldn't find a weapon or a place to go. this thing just keeps chasing me and although i can out run it easily, there is no point in playing tag with it all day. i actually stood in the room with the heal and continuously pressed E to heal my self as it was draining my life.

So i quit. This game has everything i feared it would have, all the usual traits you get with poorly made GM 3D games.

I really hate to be such a downer, i am a harsh critic though and i have high expectations so maybe you'll get some positive feedback from someone else. Personally i just didn't like it though.

My point is… it sounds pretty far off from your proposals on how one should write feedback (apart from maybe also being divided into points), and it's still fine - it's a proper review addressing relevant aspects of the game.

Not really sure why I'm arguing here, it's not a big deal…

death 11 years, 2 months ago

yes, i realize i don't review the exact way i mentioned, that is basically me admitting i need to work on it a little bit. i've at least come a long way over the past 7 years, if you read some of my earlier reviews at the YYG sandbox, they are pretty bad. This whole post was a way for me to get my ideas organized a bit and get some discussion going so i could help improve others and my own reviewing skills. (if it is a skill)

mrpete 11 years, 2 months ago

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@death: Too be honest. Both examples have little or no distinction except for the paraphrasing. When I look at both examples. I see a lot of negativity against the imaginary game developer. There is no distinction of the age of the developer or type of game being reviewed in your examples. Plus, too give an honest review of a game. One would definitely want to consult the developer on the game premise or the stage of development the game is in(if the developer hasn't already stated). In fact, the only time there should be any serious critiquing is when there is an actual BUG or an unknown event due to a platform change(such as an OS upgrade etc). Everything else is subjective from the point of the critic!. In addition, as developers some of us(including myself) have to be careful of seeing someone's finished project as a program to constantly debug. As, if it where in a constant BETA or ALPHA stage. And I have found from experience, that it happens increasingly with time. When one doesn't take a break from programming.

Quote: Cesque

I'm sorry:

@Cesque: U hit it the ball!

Quote: MMORPGguy

@MMORPGguy: The more articulated and intelligent someone becomes. The more understanding they have of their own faults and the faults in others.

@All: Remember, being BLUNT or OVERBEARING with RUDE comments that try to handle or dominate someone sharing their idea with everyone isn't critiquing!!!!! It's what it is….RUDE!!!! A true critique will be balanced with the average of pro's and con's based on the premise or direction the original developer has suggested. Unless, the project is still under development.