This is a problem I come across mostly on the internet, when you post something to get helpful feedback that you can use to improve your work with. There is a huge difference between online and in person feedback as well.
In person i find people to be too shy to be honest with their opinion, this happens when i'm at school during peer review sessions. I almost always get a very vague positive review of anything i maybe doing. (art, writing, programming, etc) I'm guessing they are afraid of any possible retaliation they might receive for giving a negative review but these reviews need to be honest and detailed for them to be useful in anyway. This ruins those sessions and it's one of the reasons i hate working in groups at school.If people are too shy to say what they think in person than perhaps they will be more honest online. Well the problem with that is they maybe a little too blunt, and they enjoy that a lot. When it comes to getting feedback online, you won't have the problem of people being shy or dishonest, however you get a bunch of people who get pleasure from being overly negative and blunt. You can see in many responses that these people really want you to feel bad for the work you did and instead of helping you, they want to hurt you.This is a difference of intention, there are people who comment just to insult your work and they are very different from those who want to help. Some people might do this without thinking or without realizing that their comment is insulting. I myself have probably done this a few times, although i try my best to avoid doing so.The important thing to remember is that helpful feedback is positive in tone and respectful to the creator. There should be no need for using adjectives that insult elements of the work. If a particular element is weak or flawed, you can state that it needs work and why. You can give feedback that negatively reviews the work without the review being in a negative or insulting tone. Now let's look at some examples of what i mean. Here is what a rude and disrespectful comment looks like:
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This game sucks. The jumping is broken, the music sounds like someone with arthritis is playing an untuned piano and the graphics mine as well have been drawn with crayons, thrown into a paper shredder and than taped back together.
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My experience with this game was a bit disappointing for several reasons: the jumping mechanics were flawed, the player has a delay when they land and it causes numerous deaths when trying to run and jump on several platforms continuously. Secondly the music is dull and emotionless, the structure needs improvement, i would suggest simplifying the structure and go with a classic verse verse chorus format for now. Last i have to mention that the graphics lack style, there seems to be very little texture to the sprites, possibly due to the lack of shading. Adding a few more shades to each sprite could dramatically increase the depth of the graphics. I would also suggest a better choice in colors to contrast the background from the foreground elements. Overall it's a solid game without any major flaws but every element of the game has a noticeable weak point that when added together, really does hurt the experience in the end.
I have to disagree mrpete. Critiquing is important both during development and after development. The developer can still learn from the feedback after a game as been released, or can still release patches to fix issues within the game. Also on the note that critiquing is subjective, i think that's debatable. I think feedback should stay as objective as possible and only reveal the reviewers subjective feelings at the end. In other words, there are objective things that can be wrong with the design or programming of a game, something just about everybody could agree on. The subjective part is how the player feels and ultimately how their experience was for them, their overall impression of the game.
@death: death you or anyone else cannot always be the forerunner in everyone's idea's. Whether they're drawing, writing music, or combing their own hair(if they have it). It simply, breaches identity after a while. And turns into a possessive game of who is in control over the original idea,style, and what not of the author..
I don't just say this out of idle conversation. It's a fact in this experience. At one point in a person's life they will have to take a stand or hold their position on what THEY want to do(regardless of who does or doesn't like the idea). YES, it's great to hear feedback from others(NOT RUDE comments). YES, there is always bleeps and blops to be bloooped out. But are they your colors, or your sounds?? Or simply, are they just not the sounds or colors that do not appeal to you(I would say that's subjective)?From your point of view on critiquing you do not consider the phase or age of the developer(development happens in cycles—-we all have growing pains). Again, in my original post I stated that any feedback or critiquing would be good for BETA or ALPHA. And the rare case that a new OS change in that current OS family had broken the previous written program in the former OS version(Windows primarily). The latter exception can happen to any new or seasoned developer. Therefore, I believe anyone would want to know that.@all: For beginning developers or programmers, death's original post would hold some truth. But seasoned programmers or developers would be in a lot of trouble of being picked apart or becoming a total extension to someone else's idea's at every corner of their projects development. Unless, their making a fan based project. I'd be dubious to listen to every critique that comes across my eye's after more than 8 years of experience(whether solo or with other developers). And in the quest for the perfect game(if it would be called as such by the time everyone had their say). Their would be only one game we would be discussing…..It would be death's game!Guess I'll jump in with my abbreviated take on things. Been reading this one for a while and watching the comments unfold.
Now this is directed mostly at mrpete, but could be considered generally applicable.As indie game developers, we create games. And it's true that we want to own the idea, we want to control it, and technically it's our right to do what we want with it.But this has nothing to do with ideas. This is critique. Critique targets many aspects of a game, not merely the 'idea', the 'concept'. We, as developers, have to learn to gratefully accept criticism, and personally I would rather read a long, formal and brutal comment that points out each and every flaw in my game over yet another damned "cool game 10/10" comment or one of it's unholy brethren. When you, as a developer, upload your game to a public site such as 64Digits, or any other location, you are essentially providing people with a product. They see it as such, they judge it based on the appearance and description of the download page, and they may or may not choose to take their time to download it.The people who play you game are customers; even though you're not selling your game, they still have to make a decision to play it; if your game claims to be something, but turns out to be something else entirely, it's well within their rights to bite your head off for wasting their time. Fortunately for most of us, most people who actually have the capability to comment on games (Or any other creative media) respond in a civil manner.Feedback is valuable, and it's constant. There is no limiting it to Alpha/Beta phases. In software development as well as game development there is no such thing as an end to development, until the public decides it's time for your game/program to die.So if you think your "Release" doesn't deserve harsh criticisms, think again. Because Joe Public gives not a damn. If you advertise something, and you fail to deliver it in the way the public expects, you are going to get critique, and should be wanting it. I don't really care what everybody else thinks, but I value every bit of harsh criticism I get on my games. It reminds me of my failures, helps me to refine my work, and provide a better experience for the user/player, since the entire goal of game development is to create an experience for the player to enjoy.'k, I'm done. Back to bed to get rid of this headache… EDIT: Yes, this is still my 'short' version of things.@mrpete: It's VERY possible to make an UGLY game, a broken game, a game that isn't fun, or any combination of those things. If a "finished" game looks terrible and plays worse, it should be stated why.
There are way too many developers screaming about piracy and lack of marketing. If they would just objectively look at their games, those developers would realize that they are almost always some level of UGLY or NOT FUN.Videogames suck. It's more compelling to make them than play them.
At first I thought Rez was just being a smartass, but then I realized I feel the exact same way.
Mega has a good outlook in his comment, but I don't want it to be overlooked that while we're designers catering to customers in the end, we're also doing this because it's a personal passion, and sometimes it's okay to break a few rules to make the game you want to make, rather than what other people want to see.idk why i haven't felt like commenting yet. harsh comments are better, for those of us who have thick skin. but things on the internet do get misinterpreted easily, and it's easy to forget to point out the good in things, in order to keep each other motivated. your comments don't have to be 1:1 good vs bad in content, but striking a balance is important when reviewing anything with merit.
and Kilin makes a good point, some things are left up to "artistic vision" which is easy to debate about.i don't disagree with Rez's pessimism. most of us are in a similar age range here. we all grew up to a few standard, quality game series that we all relate on. then midway through our childhood, programming games on our own became more and more obtainable to ordinary people. so it is no wonder we are swamped by ordinary games in the indie field. the imaginative ones aren't served to us via TV anymore, we have to find them ourselves.and i ain't even addressing game systems. weird new consoles are alien to a lot of us who don't have money to waste. i'd rather pick up an N64 off amazon. the music industry has changed as well, i'm not gonna say music sucks because of it. but the fact that cactus is the first among us to break onto a console is both optimistic and very depressing, depending on how you look at it.I don't like asking people for their opinions on my games. I've received too many idiotic responses about my games. Only a few have been helpful. Best to ask online friends their opinions.
I do ask people for their input when it comes to my art.@ factnfiction101: your point is taken and has truth about idiotic responses. This why I am not going to believe that one critic is going to be omniscient towards every one elses idea's. That's where critiquing can go very wrong and that's all I was saying.. Being open to input is good. But by not being straight with the original author or the processes involved with the idea will reek havoc with one's project.
@Acid: have fun developing or creating under HARSH criticism all the time it won't make you a better programmer or your games better(in the sense of bug-free finished product)…. Plus, I think your taking my last comment out of per portion. There are different reasons why people release their games. In the sense of money you have some points. But you know critiquing and money changes the scales and in general, is a fixed proposition. Geared towards the business of selling a game as a product. Which again, is subjective!@Mega: I clarified that….That would be in general, an unfinished or incomplete idea. What you think is ugly in a finished sense might not be ugly to everyone else.@hel: you r rite about the similar age thing going on here. With age comes knowledge. And I sometimes forget the age gaps that go on here at 64digits. It's not like it used to be 4 years ago….From here on out I'll leave this blog alone. I've stated my reasons and I hope it may help some unsuspecting developers realize some of their own potential and not their potential through everyone else all the time.. The difference between someone who knows and someone who is still learning.—stay thirsty my friends…