This conversation is like all religious debates; completely pointless and serves only to piss eachother off.

But until you guys figure that out, I'll also be MJ.

Here, I would like to address a few things from a completely christian standpoint. Before I do I want to make a few things clear: I am not the converting people type, so I am not trying to convince you of my religion (I just want you to know the other side of the coin) and I don't want to force feed anyone my beliefs so I will only address things that have already been addressed but feel free to ask (polite) questions if you'd like. I will answer to the best of my ability.

this is actually not the same in all the denominations of Christianity. Methodists (myself included) believe in free will (how else could people decide poorly). For us God merely knows what we will decide. this is open to change as God has other ways of interfering besides directly controlling your thoughts. i'll try not to preach too much though.

I can actually answer this quite well. The old testament still includes many good lessons and allegories; not everything in it is outdated. What is outdated are what are called the covenants. They are kind of like a series of 'deals' God made with his believers over the years. It is these covenants that get outdated when a new one is formed. Even then is is important to know them as they are still a part of our history. Thus the traditions are no longer used but still studied. (took a christian scriptures class :P)

Actually I just studied this in poly-sci and I'm pretty sure this never happens. It is always the other way around. Only one state so far has managed to legally allow creationism in the classroom.

This is quite true. people choose to latch onto different phrases in the bible (many which have been mistranslated) to support their personal preferences. I am of the "we are not put on this planet to judge, God/Jesus can do that well enough on his own thank you," crew. There is a specific passage stating this, but I am terrible at quoting things.

Honestly I agree. I see both sides: atheists have taken a lot of crap from believers over the years (the family drama is a good example) but Christians have taken a lot of crap from others as well. I can tell you, me saying all of this right now is not easy; I do not often share my thoughts about all of this (only my second time). Both sides have their intolerant people, I accept this, but I open that you can see that blindly hating 'religion' when you only have your experience with it is equally unfair as a christian hating an atheist for not believing.

unfortunately, these are not mutually exclusive; Christianity is very much a part of Christians. It hurts a little actually, to have that part of you hated. Please know, whatever has made your view of Christianity so bleak is undoubted true, but it is also not the example of the entirety of Christianity. I hate all of the corruption and misguided violence too. I shudder that some Christians feel you have to shove your religion in everyones face. So, I only dislike that part[i/] of my religion, which, in fact is not really a part at all. It is people. People who are making bad choices (in my opinion at least).

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To me, if you need a religious basis to tell the difference between right and wrong, you're a very disturbed person.

Are we born knowing right from wrong? Someone has to teach us. Typically when something is left to each individual to be decided, there will be a mixed result. Some people will decide on thing and others will decide something else. But religion is supposed to an outside force to each individual (I'm not saying it always works this way, but that it should) thus should be impartial to each individuals preferences and more reliable.

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I do indeed think more harm than good comes from religion.

Look, I know chuches mess up and I know there are very bad consequences, but that does not mean that the good that a church does is not equally valuable. I would like to give a few examples.

Most mission trips are very helpful, people spending their own money to go out and help someone in another area out, that's invaluable and something that is usually sorely needed. So they preach while they are there, so what? As has been stated before, you cannot force someone to listen and believe. That is up to the individual.

On top of that churches (or at least the ones I know) do a ton for the needy in their home towns: habitat for humanity, salvation army, soup kitchens, just general repair, shelter at times, and my dad even headed a group that went around a built wheelchair ramps on people's homes for free. This changes so many lives and I do not think that these things could continue without the bond of religion bringing people into groups to do this. Most people would just donate money and be done with it.

As stated before, there is also a lot of teaching that goes on, more than just simple morals; life lessons. These get progressively more complex as you grow older, out of childhood and can prepare you for many of the challenges the world gives you.

Having a God also gives us someone to hold our every action accountable to. This is necessary for some people to be kept on track.

For some Christians churches are also families. They are a place of support in hard times and there is always someone you can talk to about anything even if you have religious questions. You might not always see or believe it, but there is incredible love for each other in the smaller churches where you know most faces and you welcome those you don't.

Ok I will sign off now. I hope you don't think me pushy or anything. Like I said I just wanted to address the things I thought needed it. Please don't hate me lol, I like it here.

Edit: also, Taizen. I am so sorry this happened :( As everyone else said, your family loves you so hopefully it will work out. Hopefully with time your mother will accept that she cannot control you and that there is really nowhere to lay blame.

@Avarice:

:|

I don't have data, I do have experience with people who label themselves agnostics. Not one of them is theist. Most people have this idea of agnosticism like Kilin said and label themselves like "I am not theist and not atheist, therefore I am agnostic" but once you are not theist, you are automatically (agnostic/weak) atheist.

There is nothing new anyone can add to this discussion.

Stop talking about religion like you can change anything.

I've never lumped agnosticism in with atheism. To me, they're entirely different things. But I have heard your argument before, "if a is not b, then a must be c". That's not entirely true.

You're underestimating 64Digits. We don't piss off easily, especially not by other well-known 64Digits members. Exchanging opinions once in a while isn't a bad thing, and if you don't like it, then don't comment.

EDIT: And now the fire comes. Thanks for making me look like an ass, you two.

Get out.